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Subscriptions?
Date: Mar 11, 2007, 23:58:44
Question:
Should regular donators be given subscription perks?
Note: We are using subscription as a word everyone knows. What we're thinking of is closer to a few special perks for regular donators.

Yes, I'd like subscriptions but I'm not sure what perks they should have.
61
No, I don't want subscriptions on Storm.
78
Yes, I think subscriptions should give you larger thumbnails.
2
Yes, Subscriptions should have larger thumbnails and an improved message center
13
Yes, subscribers should get *insert other perk* (please explain)
5
Total: 159 votes
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If I wasnt poor and barely scratching by with the few dollars I do have, I would have donated...as for your poll...
you give so much already to the community, its kinda hard to offer those special perks, but I think its a good idea to give something a lil extra to someone who put forth a little extra for this site
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Thank you.

Definitely a valuable perspective, since people who can't or won't subscribe are the people we're most likely to upset if we go make a mistake here.
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Wincustomize offers premium themes for subscribers...exclusive Windowblinds they can use.  

If I remember correctly, "dAt" other place also used to do that a LONG time ago.

Something like that, maybe a special "lickit" that says "I support Storm-Artists" would be nice, rather than larger thumbails or other things like "dAt" other place.  

SA.n should be different than a website filled with D-ram-A.
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You don't think that people who support us financially should get any perks at all in site usage? We're not going to lay guilt trips on people or give them special powers (CSS, anyone?), but we thought it'd be nice to give some little reward to those who do choose to give us money.

I do take your opinion seriously - could you explain it a little more for me? I'm really curious as to what your specific concerns are. We don't have to be different in every way - other sites *have* got some things right.
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Oh, I agree.  If someone supports this site, then yeah, they should get a little something.  That's what I meant by the 'lickit' that says they support SA.n.

Some little reward would be nice, I agree.  I just don't know if giving the same kind of rewards, like larger thumbnails for example, is the right one.   That's what dAt other place does, among other things (and I dislike CSS, so I wouldn't even suggest it).

I was merely offering an alternative.  Something a little different.  A perk, as it were, to make Storm Artists more unique.  

I remember, years ago, DA would offer an "exclusive" wallpaper or something like that to subscribers.  Maybe something like that.  Or maybe different themes (not CSS) but a different color scheme not available to those who don't donate.

Things like that.  I'm personally curious to see what the others have to say.

Does that make sense?  It's late night here for me after a very long day and I might not be expressing myself well...if that's the case, forgive me.
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(lost my detailed reply through browser crash, so this might be a little shorter)

At this point, based on the votes and comments so far and on my own preferences, I'm leaning towards just changing the "Status" field on a donator's userpage and maybe giving admin endorsement of a lickit (which I'm pretty sure someone will create). Is that more or less what you're suggesting?
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Yeah, that works for me.
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Actually, I wouldn't even change their status.

Just some simple lickit that says "I support SA.N", or something like that.

It's akin to public television here in the US.  They don't have subscribers, but rather, they keep going through donations...and that's what I was shooting for, really.
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So what you're shooting for is no subscription at all, basically?
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Yep.

Donate to SA.N or not. It's your choice.

Most folks, I think, would donate.
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Fair enough, just clarifying.

I see where you're coming from there, and we'll probably do exactly that if the majority votes against introducing subscriptions.
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I have a question here.  What do you think the effect will be of creating a rank distinction visible to everyone, and not just somebody looking around in their own message center?

I don't really like the subscription idea, but it's the idea of an outward "nobility" system that bothers me even more than somebody getting perks on their control panel.  I used to see subscribers lord it over everyone else on some other sites I used in the past, and the effects it had on the community were bad enough to be a significant factor in my leaving said sites.

This is not a snipe...I think it should be a part of the debate.  So...thoughts? :-)
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I agree with you, and that's one reason I was reluctant to use the term "subscriber", and didn't want to have "subscriber benefits".

Donation is a better word.  Public television stations in the US are always looking for "donations" to keep things going.

More than anything, I'd just like to see a simple "I support SA.N" lickit appear on someone's page.  Just the stamp, not a link to where you can support, and not a way to sponsor someone else.  Just something that shows you have donated what you could to the website.

I hope that helps explain what I was shooting for.  And no, I didn't think it was a snipe.  I'd be tempted to agree with you...last thing I'd want to see here is a class system.
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At the same time we don't want to end up like sheezyArt ie constantly begging the community for money.
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Actually, I haven't seen them do that for over a year, and I'm going on the second year of my subscription.  I think they went with ads as their solution and it seems to be holding.

(Now whether you like ads or not is a whole different can of worms.  But I just thought I'd set the record straight. )
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Been a while since I've been to my sheezy accounts, last time I checked? They were down and that wasn't all that long ago.
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There's been a lot more downtime than I would like, definitely.  The place is not without its issues.  But, I haven't seen any more begging for money since before the launch of Sheezy 3.0, which if memory serves, was over a year ago.
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Well I don't keep up to date with sheezy, so I bow to your greater knowledge of it. Still We'd rather avoid sheezyart's old issues.
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I understood...I just didn't want anybody reading and getting an outdated idea. ;-)
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I've tried to look for donation options on Sheezy not too long ago, and I couldn't find them :s
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I like the idea of advertising or sponsoring actually. Storm-artists needs money so we need to find ways to raise it.
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Donations would have the same effect, I believe.

If folks can give whatever they can, it'd be better for the site.
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Your points are interesting. Though I must confess, I personally wouldn't subscribe to a site just to get a theme and some icon.

We could offer exclusive wallpapers, after all, the entire administration are artists. There's nothing to stop us from creating some "premium content" and offering it.
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And that's why (now that I've had a good seven hours sleep and my brain is functioning a little better) I think the perfect thing to do would be a simple "lickit" that appears on an artists page that says "I support SA.N".

Anything else...changes of status, extra content, whatever...would introduce a "class system", and then SA.N would be too close to that other place, if you know what I mean.

Just an opinion.  I'm just trying to help.
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If it was done right, we wouldn't get the class system, but I see your point. Though one thing I do think we should be aware of is not to abandon ideas simply because some other site has them. ;)
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Another thought is this.

Here in the US, our "public television" stations are funded through donations.  They're not subscribers who have to pay an annual fee to get the shows, rather, they donate what they can through their generosity, and want to make sure the stations can continue.

I consider SA.N something akin to that.  Yes, the public televisions do offer premiums to those who do donate (like getting a $10 CD for a $100 donation), but they don't give the person making the donation extra shows.

That's why I think the stamp is a simple way to go.

Does that make sense?
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Perhaps, still this will all have to be considered.
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Fair enough.

Thank you for letting us discuss this, though.  
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When I took over as a community development manager I laid down the  foundations for improved community relations. The things I could never get to happen at dAt other place will happen here, staff and community communication is a big deal to me, anything that will affect the community is up for discussion, you won't find any staffer here  refusing to discuss matters.
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I don't think larger thumbnails are the way to go, but maybe as Onestar said, premium themes, or a special stamp, of some sort, or whatever, signifying that a person supports SA.n.
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The general idea is that the perks would hopefully be something that would be both useful and only visible to the subscribed user. We don't want to make too much fuss over whether or not people donate but it would be nice to give a little something back.
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I think that anything you choose, being only visible to the subscriber, is ideal.
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Well... in my opinion.. subscriptions are just a way to turn this place into a clone of DA...you do not want to segment the community that way here..donations are fine..but I don't think any extra need be given for them..they should be given to the site in the spirit of supporting the community as it exists right now. Just my opinion.
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We have no intention of being a clone of dA, trust me. There are lightyears of difference between the approaches we and dA have. Hence why this is being discussed rather than just put in.
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I know.. which is why I hold the opinion that subscriptions would be a bad idea..I think that those who can afford it would subscribe and those who can't wouldn't and you would segment the community just by virtue of that. I appreciate that these things are discussed..it's a nice idea..and I appreciate what is trying to be accomplished here.. it's just my opinion that subs are not a good idea.
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Technically the community is segmented by the very nature of art, some are really skilled artists, some are mere beginners.
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yet.. all participate on the same level at present
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Some people would see staff members as being different to normal members, some would see "oldies" or "regs" as different to people who've just joined. My point is? If someone wants to be a snob, they'll find something to parade around.
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There's always a certain amount of that..but my opinion remains.
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Yeah, I know, I was just pointing out that people will find something to lord it over others with if they're that type of people.
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While I think it would be nice as a means of raising funds I also think care must be taken as to exactly what sort of perks we're talking about here.

I will agree with sunshine in that perhaps a special mark on the userpage of a active contributor (subscriber) would be a positive thing, sort of like PBS membership here in the US. Members who join PBS get gifts depending on the level of their donation, though a single-level membership would be more appropriate to sa.n. Also, PBS members get a discount on PBS sold merchandise, something that might be applicable to subscriptions should sa.n ever get into selling prints or other items to support the site.

On the other side of the coin, I do not think that whatever other perks given (if any) should, in any way shape or form, create a visible gulf between members and subscribers. A mark on an individual's userpage is nice, but at the same time no services should be provided that make the public user page materially different from any other user page.

So, in short: I think the PBS system might serve as a good model for sa.n, both being non-profits seeking funds through what amount to a "subscription".
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I like your thoughts, though I don't know what PBS is...

If we introduce subscriptions (under whatever name), we will take great care in what extra perks we give - we won't take anything away from non-subscribers, and we don't want 'subscribers' to look very different (no *status symbols, for example).

For a mark on the userpage, the "Member" text is an obvious thing to change. If we do have a special lickit for subscribers, I suggest that just be at the user's discretion - journal footer etc. I don't see that abuse of such a thing (ie non-subscriber using the stamp) would be an issue, since it'd be really easy to check against the "Status" field.

It looks like we have a non-universal consensus forming here - subscriptions but no major perks. Have to wait and see, of course.
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PBS = Public Broadcasting Service, ie. US public television (we don't have TV fees/licenses like those that help fund the BBC).

I wouldn't object to a small graphic (ie. member card) on the user page. As for a stamp, that would be more in the area of a community initiative, rather than something official.
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I disagree about the small graphic - we had one of them for staff, and we scrapped it very quickly because it looked tacky.

Fair point about the stamp, though - we might do better to leave that to whoever wants to do it.
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I was thinking of something like a small membership card looking thing placed, not in front of the name, but somewhere out of the way where it wouldn't be tacky.
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Somewhere out of the way? Where would that be, exactly?
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Underneath the status. If the status remains Member and another line for active contributor status is added beneath it I think that would do fine.
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Er... Not sure if this would mess up page layout, and also a little unclear as to how this is preferable to just changing "Member" to "Donator" or similar.
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Well, you could have it as a little membership card with a link to a page which shows the users donations. Or something like that.
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What, replace the "Member" text with a little card? That seems rather tacky, quite apart from messing with layout (replacing a fixed-percentage object with a fixed-pixel object). I also don't think we should make it that easy to check how much a particular user has donated.
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Twas just a thought... That stuff would have to be discussed in more detail if and when a "subscriber" status is implemented.
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PBS is a television station in the US "Public Broadcasting S-(something)" .. two weeks out of a year - or twice a year, I don't remember - they do begging for donations, as they don't do commericals much. They're the ones that show many childrens tv shows like Sesame Street, Arthur, etc. (and other shows as well)
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Gotcha :)
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Yes, imo, care should be taken, to make sure non-subscribers look more or less the same as subscribers...there shouldn't be an elitist, or an "I'm better than you", look, feel or perspective.
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Agreed. That's why we made a conscious decision not to have status symbols - we don't want anyone to be regarded as 'better' like that.

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That's good to hear.
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I totally agree with your point on a "gulf or rift being created."  I don't think there should be any elitist perspective, where one member is viewed as better than another...for me...member equality is of the essence.
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Indeed.
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The perks that have been considered are largely things that only the subscribed would be aware of, ie larger thumbnails and an improvement message center are two of the suggested perks.
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Very good.
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I haven't been here that long, nor am I sure I'm qualified to offer anything. I can say, I'm not sure what choice to pick on the poll. But I do agree with the "lickit" idea. Just something to show that  someone supports s.a.n. I guess I'm just not sure I like the idea of tiers of people in the community.
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Lickit's don't have anything to do with this.
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I don't look at in terms of tiers, either.

I've suggested to look at it in terms of donating, like you'd donate to PBS or public radio.

That's just my two cents.
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Donating is the way I'd prefer to look at it. That's why I like the idea of a stamp.  A "we support" kind of thing works for me.
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Yep.
I agree.  
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I don't think there's any need for a 'present' for donating. At least, not special features like larger thumbnails, or better message center. It can serve to make those who can't really donate, a little unhappy. What might be okay, is like a little element saying something about supporting the site, that will show on the users page after they donate.. (but only is there for, like, a month or something and goes away if they don't donate again, and such)
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This is a long term plan, if it happens, it won't be for a while yet. We just thought we'd see what people think of it.
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I'm not too sure about perks.  I've seen what that can do at other places...I hate when sites set it up to where you have no convenience if you don't subscribe--and what's more, you can really have a lot of problems with the social dynamic if a "class" system is set up to where those who do have the financial means to subscribe feel they have a right to lord it over the other "less loyal" community members.

I especially don't want to see any outward distinction between subscribers and non-subscribers, if you absolutely do feel you MUST implement this in order to get enough donations.  I think that it would be much better for everyone if donors had to do so anonymously or you get an obnoxious Pharisee thing going where people do it so they can show off to the community.  Basically, you wouldn't be able to see from going to someone's page in any way who was donating and who wasn't unless they happened to mention it in a journal entry.
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The site is fairly convenient, we're not planning to bombard those who don't donate with ads or making their lives difficult. Think of it more as a little incentive to give some money for upkeep. Anyone who tries to "lord it" will get told to knock it off by me.

We've discussed that, if we do have subscriptions, the most outward sign people would get? Would probably be a single line of text on their page.
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Hm...I'm kinda doubtful about putting any outward signs on somebody's page at all; I used to see on another site where some artists treated people differently on the basis of what symbol they had next to their name. :-(
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Anybody foolish enough to do that would probably get told off by the community here. It certainly would not make them popular.
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We're all trying to make a living. It's the gamble we take. We try and sell art. You try and sell us. We are your art. If we make money, hopefully the decent one's will remember and donate. Yeah right, dream on.
A walk of a thousand miles starts with but a single step. So be careful where you tread.
Don't forget what the word Charity actually means. I'm sure the donators didn't expect anything in return.
Hehe, I'm not usually this pompous
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I'd buy a subscription if you had them.
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There's no subscription per se, but you can donate anytime you wish.  

If you're in the US, think of it as donating to PBS or to public radio.  You're doing it to help support the community and keep this site running.

Just my two cents.
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I know that, but I am adding my own two cents in that if a subscription service were offered with some kind of incentives, no matter how small, I would quite readily purchase a subscription. That is what this poll is about, isn't it?
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Indeed it is, and you do have a valid point.
I just saw it from another perspective.
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i would buy a subscription... and all i want is a teeshirt,lol. seriously, I never had a subscription when i was more active on the da only because i am a senior member(you get the same perks as subscribers)personally, i don't mind donating without getting something for it. to me, it is about supporting the site so it can continue because you are providing me with a space to host my art so art galleries and clients can see my portfolio.
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T-shirts might be a possibility, somewhere down the line...
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that would be a great contest to do too.. would be fun!
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We'll see...
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i need a :flirty: emote now... hehe
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Settle for for now?
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we can grope later on. ok, now that sounded funny,ahem.

corner time? sigh
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Only if we're both in the same corner.
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you are such a sweet guy...
of course you can share the corner with me anytime!
don't tell them we play checkers there! hehe
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Nono, do tell them that. That's a perfectly innocent story to tell them...
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oooh, i get it!! yes, we are playing checkers back there!


hehe
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i would help of course...
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T-shirts are an excellent idea, actually. I would subscribe just for the t-shirt (I already have a 7chan t-shirt and cap, I need moar internet merchandise).
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just so long as they don't sell out on our favorite shirts,lol
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We could have a community contest for the best t-shirt design
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That would be a good idea. I could have a copy made for the winner.
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I would design a "glassy" effect style text saying "Storm-Artists", with emotes sitting on top
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That might look good.
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i second this idea... and would be willing to help out as much as i can. as i work at night.